I got this link from Heather. It's from Glen Beck's radio show, and he's replaying an address from the former Secretary of Agriculture, Ezra Taft Benson.
Thanks STERFRYIV. I found Ezra T. Benson's words to be my feelings exactly. He understands the way it will work. Sneak in right under our noses. Before we know it, and without us really realizing it is happening, socialism will be the practice in America. Like he said, it is a direct path to communism and it is evil. I'm not going to try and be PR. Socialism is downright evil. It seems harmless, but it is what will lead us into captivity. We are giving up our freedoms in exchange for someone else to take care of us. Pretty soon they will be in control of lives.
What's your take STERFRYVI? You posted, but didn't pontificate.
Ezra Taft Benson thought Rachel Carson author of Silent Spring was evil and communist. Her book paved the way for the creation of the environmental protection agency and is considered one of the most influential and positive women in US history. I think just that alone says a lot about what he's said here too about socialism. I know people's feelings about ETBenson here because of his religion and how literally some (not all) take his words because of his position he had. However, I think even with his position thinking for yourself matters and in my opinion...I repeat in my opinion what he says here is absolutely rubbish. I also don't think it helps it comes from Glen Beck. I think the fact he shares the same religion as ETB is not positive and doing a lot of PR harm. I can't stand Glen Beck and think he's very very evil, very bigoted, racist and unchristian. But that's just my opinion...as I know some on here think he's the best thing to happen to America since sliced bread.
Please don't insult my intelligence by implying that I blindly follow the Prophet. I don't know what kind of Mormon's you know, but that is not the way it is supposed to work. We have our own minds and are encouraged to use them to find answers for ourselves. I knew having it be a story by Glenn Beck would be a problem for some who wouldn't be able to see past the messenger. Truth is truth, no matter who tells it. Sec. of Agriculture Benson wasn't the president in the 60's when this all happened. He became sec. in 1953 when Eisenhower appointed him. He kept that position for both of Eisenhower's terms. He didn't become President until 1985, well after those comments were made. It wouldn't have taken him to tell me that communism is evil and that socialism is a direct path leading there. It slowly takes away the freedoms that we, as Americans, have fought for since the foundation of this country. If we give it up now, what has it all been for? The reason we came to America in the first place was so we could have the freedoms that we seem so eager to give up now. How have we become so LAZY??? Do your own work, earn your own money by the sweat of your own brow, give money to those in real need, love and help your neighbor, and just be a good person. We are not entitled to everything our neighbor has. If life gives us tough times, work through them. If it gets too tough to handle there should be help to get us back on our feet. But not something to live on forever. The system now just sucks us in if we need help so that it is nearly impossible to get out and on our feet again. The govn't should take a page out of the church's book when it comes to people who need financial help. They actually have a plan to get out of that situation. They aren't allowed to be complacent and expect support forever. Christine, I'm interested to know what your feelings are on socialism. By the way, I hope you realize that I consider you a good friend and really love both sides of our "relationship". The one on this blog (pretty much total opposites), and the one in the real world. I hope you don't mix the two, because when it comes to this blog I try not to sugar coat or hold back. Nothing personal :)
Ok, the weekend's here so I finally have a minute.
I have no problem with what's being said by Ezra T. Benson here. I think he's right; communism and socialism take away personal responsibility.
My problem is with Glen Beck preying on peoples fears of socialism and communism to imply that the United States is now a socialist nation.
I believe that according to Karl Marx himself, socialism is generally the step between Capitalism and Communism. It's the phase during which the government or the workers themselves begin to take control of all the capital in the market, redistributing them to everyone.
I believe that it's wrong for the government to take control of industry with the purpose of completely controlling it.
I believe that private industry can generally manage resources better than the government.
However, I have no delusions that private businesses are in any way alturistic, looking out for my best interest as a human being.
They are after one thing (the same thing that Glen Beck and Michael Moore are after, actually); Money. And if it's in their best interest to sacrifice mine, then they are going to do that.
This is why I believe government DOES play a role, even in a capitalist economy like ours.
Those who are now trying to pin the recession on the Obama administration are omitting from their memories the fact that by years and years of de-regulation (by , especially in the housing market), businesses were allowed to take advantage of unsuspecting customers.
I'm not discounting personal accountability at all; people who got too far into debt, who signed contracts they didn't understand...we are accountable for that and yes, shame on all of us.
Government exists for what purpose? It should be to serve its citizens. In our form of Capitalism, that has historically meant that the government protects consumers from businesses trying to take advantage of consumers.
Remember studying about the monopolies of the early 20th Century? If un-checked capitalism is so wonderful, then we would allow monopolies to form and let companies get as big as they want. We like to have choice, but monopolies eventually lead to less choice at more expensive prices...two things Americans complain about!
What I reject about Glen Becks radio address is that somehow America is teetering on the verge of Socialism, or worse, Communism.
I'm still waiting to hear what this administration has done that equates to Socialism. Taxes? Taxes do not equal Socialism, unless you believe the US has been Socialist from the beginning.
Healthcare? Sorry, not socialist. Maybe not standard, but certainly not Socialist. If he was seizing control of all hospitals, drug companies, etc...then yes. But trying to figure out how to get health care for people who can't afford it? Sorry, not Socialism, and certainly not on the brink of Communism.
Economic Bailout? I will note that I don't support the bailouts that have occured; they were way to expensive and they took away accountability from all the business that were running amok.
But these bailouts are hardly the work of a Socialist government. The whole point of getting all that extra money into the economy was to increase confidence in the markets!!! Socialists don't care about consumer confidence in the markets!
I guess long story short, I'm tired of hearing that we are somehow drifting towards Socialism or Communism. This is the United States and we are NOT in danger of becoming a Socialist nation.
Case in point; Michael Moore would not be doing a movie about the evils of Capitalism if we were anything but a solid Capitalist nation.
More on Glen Beck. While my opinion isn't as strong as Christine's, I do have issues with the way this is presented;
I do think it's a bit shady to use such a powerful quote from a man you sustain as a prophet, seer and revelator of God, but make no mention of this fact in your address to your listeners. A lot of people would probably not have been moved by what he said had they known who he was.
Maybe he did and it just didn't make it on that clip? But I doubt it.
"I know people's feelings about ETBenson here because of his religion and how literally some (not all) take his words because of his position he had. However, I think even with his position thinking for yourself matters in my opinion"
Where did I say that Heather blindly follows the prophet in here? I don't see it, is it hiding somewhere??? Do let me know when you find it!
Some DO blindly follow, a lot don't which is what I was saying....But as I reiterated quite a bit thats just my opinion of Mormonism and religion in general (I'm very much agnostic). I think its easier to see things outside of that inner circle though too when rose colored glasses tend to not be so bright so to speak. But again that's just my opinions.
Even if he wasn't the prophet during his time as secretary of agriculture, those opinions still would have existed later and I just disagree because I think its fearmongering plain and simple. Glen Beck's middle name is fear as well and I'm not suprised he pulled this tape out.
I agree with Sterlings comment about Glen Beck and the church...Personally I just really don't think Glen Beck is helping peoples favorable opinions of the religion at all...but thats just my opinion.
I get annoyed when people suggest that those who need help are either lazy or not working hard enough. Sure that might be 5-10%, but most can't stand getting help and did nothing wrong---they worked their behinds off and just are going through a rough patch. Again I'll reiterate what I've said here before...I don't think its compassionate or Christlike to leave the vulnerable to suffer.
I agree with Sterling...I'm getting tired of people suggesting America is turning socialist/communist. Its a pack of lies straight and simple. Its not the first time these lies have been spread as well...happened with Medicare, Social Security (look it up)...Did we start saluting stalin after these programs, no. It doesn't help that lies are being spread by the six health carelobbyists to one congressman currently fighting things for pure money issues(I've got the source for this if you want). I've been to socialist countries and many argue currently that England (the country I live in) and the party in power (New Labour) is very much socialist. America is sooooooo far from this its not even funny. Even if they do adopt healthcare (which they will)....America will still be a long long way from it and has nothing to worry about.
As far as my beliefs on socialism/capitalism, etc....I think there needs to be a balance. The wacked out capitalist system that America has now currently focusing on greed, consumerism, deregulation, spreading the gap between rich and poor even further than it is will destroy this country...but I don't agree that things need to go far wacked out to the other way either...I think picking and choosing what works best from the systems and going forward with the best of both worlds would be a start.
I agree with Sterling...there's an awful lot of blame on Obama for the problems. He INHERITED these problems from Bush. Bush was trying to get a bailout package as well sorted before he left. He pushed things further and further to the right to the wacked out capitalism. There has to be a balance for everything..I really believe that's what the writers of the constitution were talking about. But that's just my opinion.
P.S. I actually really like Michael Moore's films although I dont agree with everything with him politically. Sure he does it for money like everything in the wacked out capitalistic country of the USA...but at least he's got courage to discuss issues that people are too afraid of otherwise. I think when you can't challenge people's thoughts like he does regularly then thats when our country really has to worry.
P.P.S. You don't have to put disclaimers on your posts for fear of offending me...Whatever is said I'll deal with it in my own way.
RE: validity of ETB comments. What he says is very in-line with the leading thought of the leading economists (not politicians) of his day, such as Hayek and Friedman. Benson's comments get more play here because he tied socialism, individual choice, and freedom together with right and wrong. It wasn't like he was speaking in a vacuum. At that same time, a former actor in California was making the rounds in the speech circuit (its what people did for fun before reality t.v. and cable news pundits) talking about communism and it's evils. You know him as Ronald Reagan and his speeches were the seeds of what we would later know as the "Evil Empire" speech. So ETB wasn't really speaking out of the blue or out of line with some prominent thinkers and leaders of his time--he just happens to be one that also became a prominent religious leader for a small religion then centered in the American west.
The intervening years have seen the fall of communism in institutional form and with it, the decline of the explicit intent of it's leaders to overthrow the capitalistic west by revolution. Intellectual thought at the time were lead by such books and essays as "The End of History" (Francis Fukuyama) which posited that capitalism/democracy had won, and there would be no more struggle of civilizations. His book was soon refuted by "The Clash of Civilizations," )Samuel P. Huntington) which at the time was less successful, but is seeming more prescient now.
The point to all this is that the question of capitalism v. socialism and it's distant and more dangerous cousin communism has been less in front of our generation than it was our parents. Further, forms of socialism have been integrated, for better or worse, in most of the governing systems of the world. You can make the judgment call whether it has been for good or bad, but it is largely here in some combination with democracy and capitalism, and is not likely to be rolled back.
Europe's use has, obviously, been far more extensive, with conservatives like Sarkozy and Merkel agreeing on the need to retain the social welfare elements of their state. However, they, along with their constituents, are much concerned about the costs and the sustainability of whole scale social welfare. Hence, mainland Europe is seeing the conservative parties in control of the government, and in the UK, and Christine can correct me, the Labour party (more liberal, I think, right?) has been under fire in recent months, though more for corruption than for social spending.
But then we arrive on this side of the pond. What does it look like here, and has it been appropriate? Do we accept the costs and do we think it worth our while to incur further costs in the name of society's benefit? And is social spending by the government the best way to benefit society?
I recommend Friedrich (not Thelma) von Hayek and Milton Friedmen. Easy reads, both.
1. I said "implying" in regards to the blindly following the prophet bit. I do believe some people do blindly follow, but that is not what they are supposed to be doing.
2. We should be aware of those around us who are in need and give as much as we can. There should be a system set up wherby they can get help to get back on their feet.
3. I agree that we need to find a middle ground. Something that doesn't allow monopolies, and something that isn't total government control. But it needs to be us, the people, who decide. Congress doesn't listen. I don't care what side of the isle they are on. They don't listen! They think they know better than the stupid Joe Schmo.
4. Daniel is a freakin' genius. I don't have that gift, as is obvious. Man, how would it be?
I never thought I'd say this but you are correct about what you said about Europe. :)
Labour is very very far left here and the backlash IS not because the people don't necessarily disagree with some of their platforms but because of loads of other issues like corruption, etc. Labour hasn't gotten anything done at all for the longest time, there's ill will towards Tony Blair and his friendship w/Bush still that has seeped to Gordon Brown, no one even likes Gordon Brown (he was never elected into office technically). There is a move towards the Conservatives but they still support the environment and the NHS. There is also a rise in the fringe independent parties like the BNP because of people's disdain for the government and the two main parties.
I think mainland Europe is the same although like here there would be riots if the government decided to get rid of programs like the NHS, etc.
Just curious, and I am sincere, because I hear and see and view the cries of "Socialism is coming" with much the same skepticism as I hear "Wolf, wolf!":
What would be indicative of socialism? I think it is commonly agreed (by both liberals and conservatives and libertarians alike) that most of the world's governments have integrated elements of social systems (broadly, socialism), but exactly which are those systems? What IS socialism, as you see it? Why?
Daniel I've heard rumors about Tony Blair and the EU, but I think right now they are just rumors. England likes to do a lot of talking but rarely gets things done half the time. I think Tony is enjoying his time as a middle eastern rep.
13 comments:
Thanks STERFRYIV. I found Ezra T. Benson's words to be my feelings exactly. He understands the way it will work. Sneak in right under our noses. Before we know it, and without us really realizing it is happening, socialism will be the practice in America. Like he said, it is a direct path to communism and it is evil. I'm not going to try and be PR. Socialism is downright evil. It seems harmless, but it is what will lead us into captivity. We are giving up our freedoms in exchange for someone else to take care of us. Pretty soon they will be in control of lives.
What's your take STERFRYVI? You posted, but didn't pontificate.
Ezra Taft Benson thought Rachel Carson author of Silent Spring was evil and communist. Her book paved the way for the creation of the environmental protection agency and is considered one of the most influential and positive women in US history. I think just that alone says a lot about what he's said here too about socialism. I know people's feelings about ETBenson here because of his religion and how literally some (not all) take his words because of his position he had. However, I think even with his position thinking for yourself matters and in my opinion...I repeat in my opinion what he says here is absolutely rubbish. I also don't think it helps it comes from Glen Beck. I think the fact he shares the same religion as ETB is not positive and doing a lot of PR harm. I can't stand Glen Beck and think he's very very evil, very bigoted, racist and unchristian. But that's just my opinion...as I know some on here think he's the best thing to happen to America since sliced bread.
Christine,
Please don't insult my intelligence by implying that I blindly follow the Prophet. I don't know what kind of Mormon's you know, but that is not the way it is supposed to work. We have our own minds and are encouraged to use them to find answers for ourselves.
I knew having it be a story by Glenn Beck would be a problem for some who wouldn't be able to see past the messenger. Truth is truth, no matter who tells it.
Sec. of Agriculture Benson wasn't the president in the 60's when this all happened. He became sec. in 1953 when Eisenhower appointed him. He kept that position for both of Eisenhower's terms. He didn't become President until 1985, well after those comments were made.
It wouldn't have taken him to tell me that communism is evil and that socialism is a direct path leading there. It slowly takes away the freedoms that we, as Americans, have fought for since the foundation of this country. If we give it up now, what has it all been for? The reason we came to America in the first place was so we could have the freedoms that we seem so eager to give up now.
How have we become so LAZY??? Do your own work, earn your own money by the sweat of your own brow, give money to those in real need, love and help your neighbor, and just be a good person. We are not entitled to everything our neighbor has. If life gives us tough times, work through them. If it gets too tough to handle there should be help to get us back on our feet. But not something to live on forever. The system now just sucks us in if we need help so that it is nearly impossible to get out and on our feet again. The govn't should take a page out of the church's book when it comes to people who need financial help. They actually have a plan to get out of that situation. They aren't allowed to be complacent and expect support forever.
Christine, I'm interested to know what your feelings are on socialism.
By the way, I hope you realize that I consider you a good friend and really love both sides of our "relationship". The one on this blog (pretty much total opposites), and the one in the real world. I hope you don't mix the two, because when it comes to this blog I try not to sugar coat or hold back. Nothing personal :)
Ok, the weekend's here so I finally have a minute.
I have no problem with what's being said by Ezra T. Benson here. I think he's right; communism and socialism take away personal responsibility.
My problem is with Glen Beck preying on peoples fears of socialism and communism to imply that the United States is now a socialist nation.
I believe that according to Karl Marx himself, socialism is generally the step between Capitalism and Communism. It's the phase during which the government or the workers themselves begin to take control of all the capital in the market, redistributing them to everyone.
I believe that it's wrong for the government to take control of industry with the purpose of completely controlling it.
I believe that private industry can generally manage resources better than the government.
However, I have no delusions that private businesses are in any way alturistic, looking out for my best interest as a human being.
They are after one thing (the same thing that Glen Beck and Michael Moore are after, actually); Money. And if it's in their best interest to sacrifice mine, then they are going to do that.
This is why I believe government DOES play a role, even in a capitalist economy like ours.
Those who are now trying to pin the recession on the Obama administration are omitting from their memories the fact that by years and years of de-regulation (by , especially in the housing market), businesses were allowed to take advantage of unsuspecting customers.
I'm not discounting personal accountability at all; people who got too far into debt, who signed contracts they didn't understand...we are accountable for that and yes, shame on all of us.
Government exists for what purpose? It should be to serve its citizens. In our form of Capitalism, that has historically meant that the government protects consumers from businesses trying to take advantage of consumers.
Remember studying about the monopolies of the early 20th Century? If un-checked capitalism is so wonderful, then we would allow monopolies to form and let companies get as big as they want. We like to have choice, but monopolies eventually lead to less choice at more expensive prices...two things Americans complain about!
What I reject about Glen Becks radio address is that somehow America is teetering on the verge of Socialism, or worse, Communism.
I'm still waiting to hear what this administration has done that equates to Socialism. Taxes? Taxes do not equal Socialism, unless you believe the US has been Socialist from the beginning.
Healthcare? Sorry, not socialist. Maybe not standard, but certainly not Socialist. If he was seizing control of all hospitals, drug companies, etc...then yes. But trying to figure out how to get health care for people who can't afford it? Sorry, not Socialism, and certainly not on the brink of Communism.
Economic Bailout? I will note that I don't support the bailouts that have occured; they were way to expensive and they took away accountability from all the business that were running amok.
But these bailouts are hardly the work of a Socialist government. The whole point of getting all that extra money into the economy was to increase confidence in the markets!!! Socialists don't care about consumer confidence in the markets!
I guess long story short, I'm tired of hearing that we are somehow drifting towards Socialism or Communism. This is the United States and we are NOT in danger of becoming a Socialist nation.
Case in point; Michael Moore would not be doing a movie about the evils of Capitalism if we were anything but a solid Capitalist nation.
There you go Heather...I have now pontificated.
More on Glen Beck. While my opinion isn't as strong as Christine's, I do have issues with the way this is presented;
I do think it's a bit shady to use such a powerful quote from a man you sustain as a prophet, seer and revelator of God, but make no mention of this fact in your address to your listeners. A lot of people would probably not have been moved by what he said had they known who he was.
Maybe he did and it just didn't make it on that clip? But I doubt it.
I wrote:
"I know people's feelings about ETBenson here because of his religion and how literally some (not all) take his words because of his position he had. However, I think even with his position thinking for yourself matters in my opinion"
Where did I say that Heather blindly follows the prophet in here? I don't see it, is it hiding somewhere??? Do let me know when you find it!
Some DO blindly follow, a lot don't which is what I was saying....But as I reiterated quite a bit thats just my opinion of Mormonism and religion in general (I'm very much agnostic). I think its easier to see things outside of that inner circle though too when rose colored glasses tend to not be so bright so to speak. But again that's just my opinions.
Even if he wasn't the prophet during his time as secretary of agriculture, those opinions still would have existed later and I just disagree because I think its fearmongering plain and simple. Glen Beck's middle name is fear as well and I'm not suprised he pulled this tape out.
I agree with Sterlings comment about Glen Beck and the church...Personally I just really don't think Glen Beck is helping peoples favorable opinions of the religion at all...but thats just my opinion.
I get annoyed when people suggest that those who need help are either lazy or not working hard enough. Sure that might be 5-10%, but most can't stand getting help and did nothing wrong---they worked their behinds off and just are going through a rough patch. Again I'll reiterate what I've said here before...I don't think its compassionate or Christlike to leave the vulnerable to suffer.
I agree with Sterling...I'm getting tired of people suggesting America is turning socialist/communist. Its a pack of lies straight and simple. Its not the first time these lies have been spread as well...happened with Medicare, Social Security (look it up)...Did we start saluting stalin after these programs, no. It doesn't help that lies are being spread by the six health carelobbyists to one congressman currently fighting things for pure money issues(I've got the source for this if you want). I've been to socialist countries and many argue currently that England (the country I live in) and the party in power (New Labour) is very much socialist. America is sooooooo far from this its not even funny. Even if they do adopt healthcare (which they will)....America will still be a long long way from it and has nothing to worry about.
As far as my beliefs on socialism/capitalism, etc....I think there needs to be a balance. The wacked out capitalist system that America has now currently focusing on greed, consumerism, deregulation, spreading the gap between rich and poor even further than it is will destroy this country...but I don't agree that things need to go far wacked out to the other way either...I think picking and choosing what works best from the systems and going forward with the best of both worlds would be a start.
I agree with Sterling...there's an awful lot of blame on Obama for the problems. He INHERITED these problems from Bush. Bush was trying to get a bailout package as well sorted before he left. He pushed things further and further to the right to the wacked out capitalism. There has to be a balance for everything..I really believe that's what the writers of the constitution were talking about. But that's just my opinion.
P.S. I actually really like Michael Moore's films although I dont agree with everything with him politically. Sure he does it for money like everything in the wacked out capitalistic country of the USA...but at least he's got courage to discuss issues that people are too afraid of otherwise. I think when you can't challenge people's thoughts like he does regularly then thats when our country really has to worry.
P.P.S. You don't have to put disclaimers on your posts for fear of offending me...Whatever is said I'll deal with it in my own way.
RE: validity of ETB comments. What he says is very in-line with the leading thought of the leading economists (not politicians) of his day, such as Hayek and Friedman. Benson's comments get more play here because he tied socialism, individual choice, and freedom together with right and wrong. It wasn't like he was speaking in a vacuum. At that same time, a former actor in California was making the rounds in the speech circuit (its what people did for fun before reality t.v. and cable news pundits) talking about communism and it's evils. You know him as Ronald Reagan and his speeches were the seeds of what we would later know as the "Evil Empire" speech. So ETB wasn't really speaking out of the blue or out of line with some prominent thinkers and leaders of his time--he just happens to be one that also became a prominent religious leader for a small religion then centered in the American west.
The intervening years have seen the fall of communism in institutional form and with it, the decline of the explicit intent of it's leaders to overthrow the capitalistic west by revolution. Intellectual thought at the time were lead by such books and essays as "The End of History" (Francis Fukuyama) which posited that capitalism/democracy had won, and there would be no more struggle of civilizations. His book was soon refuted by "The Clash of Civilizations," )Samuel P. Huntington) which at the time was less successful, but is seeming more prescient now.
The point to all this is that the question of capitalism v. socialism and it's distant and more dangerous cousin communism has been less in front of our generation than it was our parents. Further, forms of socialism have been integrated, for better or worse, in most of the governing systems of the world. You can make the judgment call whether it has been for good or bad, but it is largely here in some combination with democracy and capitalism, and is not likely to be rolled back.
Europe's use has, obviously, been far more extensive, with conservatives like Sarkozy and Merkel agreeing on the need to retain the social welfare elements of their state. However, they, along with their constituents, are much concerned about the costs and the sustainability of whole scale social welfare. Hence, mainland Europe is seeing the conservative parties in control of the government, and in the UK, and Christine can correct me, the Labour party (more liberal, I think, right?) has been under fire in recent months, though more for corruption than for social spending.
But then we arrive on this side of the pond. What does it look like here, and has it been appropriate? Do we accept the costs and do we think it worth our while to incur further costs in the name of society's benefit? And is social spending by the government the best way to benefit society?
I recommend Friedrich (not Thelma) von Hayek and Milton Friedmen. Easy reads, both.
1. I said "implying" in regards to the blindly following the prophet bit. I do believe some people do blindly follow, but that is not what they are supposed to be doing.
2. We should be aware of those around us who are in need and give as much as we can. There should be a system set up wherby they can get help to get back on their feet.
3. I agree that we need to find a middle ground. Something that doesn't allow monopolies, and something that isn't total government control. But it needs to be us, the people, who decide. Congress doesn't listen. I don't care what side of the isle they are on. They don't listen! They think they know better than the stupid Joe Schmo.
4. Daniel is a freakin' genius. I don't have that gift, as is obvious. Man, how would it be?
Daniel
I never thought I'd say this but you are correct about what you said about Europe. :)
Labour is very very far left here and the backlash IS not because the people don't necessarily disagree with some of their platforms but because of loads of other issues like corruption, etc. Labour hasn't gotten anything done at all for the longest time, there's ill will towards Tony Blair and his friendship w/Bush still that has seeped to Gordon Brown, no one even likes Gordon Brown (he was never elected into office technically). There is a move towards the Conservatives but they still support the environment and the NHS. There is also a rise in the fringe independent parties like the BNP because of people's disdain for the government and the two main parties.
I think mainland Europe is the same although like here there would be riots if the government decided to get rid of programs like the NHS, etc.
Um, Heather, I'm a little embarrassed. I'm not sure what you are referring to in your post, but it's awfully flattering of you to say it.
Christine, isn't Tony, in spite of his unpopularity due to hangin' with our homeboy Bush, the likely next president of the EU?
STERFRIV:
Just curious, and I am sincere, because I hear and see and view the cries of "Socialism is coming" with much the same skepticism as I hear "Wolf, wolf!":
What would be indicative of socialism? I think it is commonly agreed (by both liberals and conservatives and libertarians alike) that most of the world's governments have integrated elements of social systems (broadly, socialism), but exactly which are those systems? What IS socialism, as you see it? Why?
Daniel I've heard rumors about Tony Blair and the EU, but I think right now they are just rumors. England likes to do a lot of talking but rarely gets things done half the time. I think Tony is enjoying his time as a middle eastern rep.
Isn't that just the way of so many politicians? All talk, and not much walk?
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